PC Pals Forum
Technical Help & Discussion => AV Lounge => Topic started by: Simon on January 07, 2004, 18:03
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As I may have mentioned, I'm soon to be getting a DVD Recorder, when they finally get round to shipping it. >:( However (you'll like this Clive), I read a review of the said machine (Pioneer DVR3100) in Home Cinema Choice magazine, and it said quite specifically that this machine, along with most others of the current generation, will not record in RGB. Given that most of my recordings will be made from a Digital Set Top Box, which only outputs RGB or Composite, this is a bit of a bugger, as Composite Video is barely better quality than VHS.
The machine will, however, record in S-Video, which I am told is not noticably inferior to RGB, but this will mean replacing my current Freeview set top box with one that outputs S-Video. I'm uncertain if this will be worthwhile, but I do want to get the best out of the DVDR.
What I want to know is this. If I record in S-Video, does this mean I have to also set the DVDR to play it back in S-Video, thus losing the advantage of RGB loopthrough from the DigiBox, or can I still play back in RGB, and will it be RGB quality?
I have also been told that the DVDR records in all formats anyway (RGB, S-Video and Composite), and it is the source which makes the difference, so (this is the bit I can't get my head round), if I use the RGB output from the DigiBox to record to the DVDR, but the DVDR will not accept an RGB signal to record, can I then still play it back in RGB, and what will the quality be like?
I hope this is as confusing to most of you as it is to me. I just need it explained in very simple terms, please.
Clive - this is getting complicated and I haven't even got the damned thing yet! ;D ;D
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Hookstar sits back and watches another saga run (https://www.pc-pals.com/smf/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fforums.mg-rover.org%2Fimages%2Fsmilies%2Fbeer.gif&hash=c7effa04284f1d65fd049517607568ac3917c1b9)
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Trouble is, Hook, I don't think there's that many TV Techies among us. :'(
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What I want to know is this. If I record in S-Video, does this mean I have to also set the DVDR to play it back in S-Video, thus losing the advantage of RGB loopthrough from the DigiBox, or can I still play back in RGB, and will it be RGB quality?
I wish you lot would stop in different langagues
its all french to me ::) ;D ;)
I'd love to say I know what you are on about Simon............ but I can't :-[ ::)
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Hookstar picks up another book.....this time War & Peace to read waiting on the outcome (https://www.pc-pals.com/smf/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fforums.mg-rover.org%2Fimages%2Fsmilies%2Fnaughty.gif&hash=6a14ce4984c035e77c49be4203fc0cb8a28425a3)
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Simon..in all seriousnessssss I am going out for a couple of pints tonight (nothing new there then) I have a mate who is a TV techie in real life, I have printed off your problem and I will show him later.
Hookstar
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Thanks Hook.
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This is starting to get worrying Simon. I presumed that the connections were coax, just like a VCR since the Philips model I saw in Currys had those connections. I've connected my current DVD player to my receiver using an optical cable. With the delivery times they quoted me, yours should have turned up by now. I was expecting mine to arrive by Friday!
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See your PM Clive. The aerial connections are with a coax, like a VCR, but to get the RGB output, thus the best picture quality, you need to use fully pinned scart leads. Your current DVD must use scarts, as they usually connect that way. The RGB loopthrough will go from thye DVDR, through your current DVD scart, to the TV scart input. It's not the connections I was worried about, it's the output and recording modes.
I ordered mine on Dec 28th, and it's still showing as 'Scheduling Delivery' on the website Order Status, which hasn't changed since last week.
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I'm sorry Simon, but the "lights are on but no-ones home" flashed up halfway through your post. ;D I will have to wait until I get the instruction book with pretty diagrams for Mrs Clive to visualise all this. ;D
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My man said Scarts all the way through as you will lose signal strength through coax, apart from that everything should be ok with HQ discs ;)
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Hi Simon
I've been ordered to reply by Sandra :o ;)
You should notice no significant difference in quality between an S VIDEO and RGB input. Both avoids the PAL encoding/Decoding process which is the troublesome bit.
If the DVDR has an output SCART socket then RGB OUT should be available there .
I'm surprised that RGB input recording isn't offered as it makes no real difference to the digitising chips in the recorder. No doubt a software upgrade will be made available in the future if the SCART socket is fully wired.
Best of Luck. :)
BTW ..HAPPY NEW YEAR to everyone on PC-PALS and KEEP UP the GOOD WORK . ;D
Pass me another Flagon. ....Scrumpy-Jack 8)
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Well mine has turned up today and I've taken a quick look inside the box. It has connections for SCART (not supplied!) s video, optical and RGB output so it appears there are plenty of options. They didn't include a DVD to record on - how mean is that? ;D Also, it said in the advert that I was entitled to 3 out of 5 (albeit crappy) DVD films yet there is no mention of them. Also free plane tickets to God knows where, but where are they??
I won't actually be setting it up for a week or so as we have decorators in all next week and the home cinema will have to be dismantled for a few days.
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Mine also turned up today - a Sony RDR-GX3. Will be setting it up tonight...
MUHAHAHAHAHAHA!![/b][/size] (https://www.pc-pals.com/smf/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.apax34.dsl.pipex.com%2Fsmileys%2Fevil8.gif&hash=7f361bc325b3813278441f1846e93f6fdfd88a54) (https://www.pc-pals.com/smf/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.apax34.dsl.pipex.com%2Fsmileys%2Fevil8.gif&hash=7f361bc325b3813278441f1846e93f6fdfd88a54) (https://www.pc-pals.com/smf/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.apax34.dsl.pipex.com%2Fsmileys%2Fevil8.gif&hash=7f361bc325b3813278441f1846e93f6fdfd88a54)
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That was quick Simon! You can be guinea pig. ;D
Question 1. My DVD players use "DVD video" discs so I presume I have to buy blank DVD video format for my recorder? Viking, who I buy all that sort of stuff from don't seem to stock them. :'(
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You can even get them in supermarkets now Clive.
Just make sure you get the correct ones for your machine, either + or - , you should be able to get rewritables one too :)
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These seem to be competatively priced Clive, as long as you buy in bulk :)
http://www.blankdiscshop.co.uk/acatalog/DVD_Section__DVD_R_RW___DVD_R_RW___DVD_RAM_.html
Probably better to get a few locally to try it out and then order on line :)
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Clive, for your Pioneer you can either use DVD-RAM, DVD-R, or DVD-RW blank discs. DVD-RAM cannot be played back on another machine. DVD-R and DVD-RW discs can be played on the majority of other machines, providing you have formatted the disc in Video Mode.
I've started a new thread on this subject here (http://pc-pals.com/index.php?board=55;action=display;threadid=9544). :)
I've got my Sony all set up. It's very much like setting up a combination of a DVD Player and a VCR, which is obvious, I suppose. Everything is connected via scart leads, and set to RGB for the best picture quality. I have done some test recordings, and the 2 hour SP mode is by far the best. It is impossible to distinguish between a recording in SP mode, and the original digital broadcast. As you go through the other modes (LP: 3 hours; EP: 4 hours; SLP: 6 hours), the picture quality gradually softens, but is still watchable.
Set up is very easy, and the machine walks you through the basic settings. I'll report back when I've had a bit more of a play.
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Thanks Sandra, those prices are better than Viking which I buy all my stationery supplies from.
Your findings are very encouraging Simon. I hadn't realised you have to format each disc. I've just had a quick scan of the manual and it says it does it automatically when you load a new disc. How long does it take?
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My Sony takes about 20 seconds to format a new disc. I don't think you have to do it every time, if you are using DVD-RWs, as it overwrites what is on the disc, if I understand it correctly. I may be wrong with that - haven't got round to that bit yet. Thinking about it, that may only happens in VR mode (not Video Mode), so you may have to format a full disc before you use it again, if you are using Video Mode. Hopefully I can clarify that soon.
You do, however, have to finalise RWs before you can play them on another machine, which takes about 2-3 minutes for a full disc. No longer than rewinding a video tape, really.
One other thing I noticed is that when you are recording consecutive programs on the timer (i.e. Corrie then Eastenders), it pauses for about 20 seconds between timer events to write info to the disc.
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Someone was having problems on another forum with rewritable dvds not working correctly if they werent formatted Simon as they retained some data from the earlier recording and couldnt read the new one somehow.
Maybe it doesnt overwrite at the beginning or something ???
I will see if I can find it and post it here later :)
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Clive, for your Pioneer you can either use DVD-RAM, DVD-R, or DVD-RW blank discs. DVD-RAM cannot be played back on another machine. DVD-R and DVD-RW discs can be played on the majority of other machines, providing you have formatted the disc in Video Mode.
'Fraid not :)
The Pioneer does not record on DVD-RAM. It only records on -R and -RW.
BTW DVD-RAM can be played back on other machines (All the panasonic range from the last 2 years, thompson range, toshiba etc), thats how I do video archiving. I record on the E20 at highest quality and then edit it on there. I then take the RAM disc and play it in my RA82 player and dub it onto a DVD-R.
Well mine has turned up today and I've taken a quick look inside the box. It has connections for SCART (not supplied!) s video, optical and RGB output so it appears there are plenty of options. They didn't include a DVD to record on - how mean is that? Also, it said in the advert that I was entitled to 3 out of 5 (albeit crappy) DVD films yet there is no mention of them. Also free plane tickets to God knows where, but where are they??
Worth giving them a ring/email - the usual situation is there should be a leaflet included that you send back with your choice of films etc.
WOnder if the promotion has finished due to their tardiness in sending the players :)
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Dont know if this is relevant or not to the two of you, Clive and Simon.
Its the post from the other forum that I mentioned earlier.
This would be writing on a pc of course, using Nero, so maybe your tv dvd recorder will do it differently ???
I found that when I use a DVD-RW I had to format the disk in nero first then put the files on if the disk had been used for something else. If I did not do this the file would start to play and then go to the end and read the next file on the disk and it would not fast forward. After formating the disk all was fine.
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Thanks Sandra. I'm going to sit and 'RTFM' this afternoon. ::) ;) ;D
Clive, for your Pioneer you can either use DVD-RAM, DVD-R, or DVD-RW blank discs. DVD-RAM cannot be played back on another machine. DVD-R and DVD-RW discs can be played on the majority of other machines, providing you have formatted the disc in Video Mode.
'Fraid not :)
The Pioneer does not record on DVD-RAM. It only records on -R and -RW.
BTW DVD-RAM can be played back on other machines (All the panasonic range from the last 2 years, thompson range, toshiba etc), thats how I do video archiving. I record on the E20 at highest quality and then edit it on there. I then take the RAM disc and play it in my RA82 player and dub it onto a DVD-R.
Oops! :-[ Sorry 'bout that. I must have been looking at the JVC. ::) I thought it was only Panasonic players that played back RAM, so I've learned something there. ;)
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Thanks Dack. I'll buy a few discs to experiment with and let you know how I get on. They are cheap enough to make mistakes with so it won't be the end of the world if it goes horribly wrong.
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Well it was a bit of a struggle but I've got it working at long last. Much of the problem was that I have 5 TV sets connected on a router system and they all stopped working (apart from the plasma set) when I swapped the VCR for the DVDR. Then I couldn't get the DVDR tuned in properly. Eventually it was all resolved and I've successfully recorded my first DVD. The only problem is that in order for it to be played on one of my other DVD players, the DVD has to be "finalized" to glue the recording in place and that takes a further 20 - 60 minutes.
I bought the discs from Sandra's website (48 hours to deliver) and I've had my free DVD voucher which actually cost me £5 for 3 DVD's.
The acid test will be actually recording something Mrs Clive wants to see and get the correct channel for once.
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The only problem is that in order for it to be played on one of my other DVD players, the DVD has to be "finalized" to glue the recording in place and that takes a further 20 - 60 minutes.
WHHAAATTT??!!!![/b][/i] :o :o :o Are you sure you don't mean 2 - 6 minutes, Clive? My Sony takes about 2 minutes to finalize a disc recorded in LP (3 hours), and about 4 minutes for EP (4 hours). Surely there can't be that much of a dramatic difference between models? Must be Sandra's dodgy cheap discs! :P ;D ;D Which mode are you using? Plus or Minus?
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Ah! That will teach me to read the manual properly. It says:
If the finalization process is going to take more than around 4 minutes, you can press enter to cancel. A disc recorded in VR mode can take up to 1 hour to finalize. A disc recorded in Video mode can take up to 20 minutes.
I haven't had to finalize a disc yet so I will let you know how long Dalziel and Pascoe or Touch of Frost takes when the time comes.
Oh, I'm using minus.
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How's your recordings going, Simon?. My daughter who has the philips dvd recorder found that fitting the best fully wired scart leads improved the quality greatly. :). She is still not very impressed with the 6 hour recording quality.
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Yes, better scarts = better picture. It's going OK, thanks Lona. I find that the picture quality deteriorates (softens) if I try to get more than about 3 hours on a disc, but as I use DVD-RWs, it's not a problem, as I can just record over them again. I did accidentally record an episode of Corrie in the 6 hour mode, and it looked 'film' quality, rather than 'studio' quality, if you know what I mean. Watchable, but not what I would choose normally. It's especially noticable, having a large screen TV. Picture quality from a digital source, in the 2 hour mode, is second to none.
The only thing I would possibly criticise is that you can't quickly whack a disc in to record in an 'emergency', as you have to format the disc first, which takes a few minutes. Not a big deal, but not quite as 'immediate' as shoving a video in a VCR and hitting Instant Record.
The one I have, the Sony GX3 also has a bit of an irritating 'feature', which I have discussed before, in that I can't use the Synchro Record function, because for some reason, it starts to record when I play another DVD on my other DVD Player. The Synchro Record feature is supposed to enable the DVDR to record from a (Freeview) Digital Set Top Box timer, so you only need to program one appliance, however, as I cannot use this function, it means that if I want to Timer Record programs, I have to set the timers on both the Set Top Box, and the DVDR, which is a bit tiresome.
I still think it's a more than worthy successor to the VCR, for the picture and sound quality, and the fact that the discs are so convenient.
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::)
My man said Scarts all the way through as you will lose signal strength through coax, apart from that everything should be ok with HQ discs ;)
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I think that if I was rich enough and could find anything worth recording off the TV, then I would definately go for a dvd recorder with either a built in hard drive or ethernet to connect to the pc :)
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Well I've learned a lot about my DVD recorder by now and I can make it do all the things I want it to. I've done quite a lot of editing and found that it is completely seamless with none of those annoying gaps and stutters that I used to get with VCR editing. The finalization process on a 2 hour recording in video mode took just 2 minutes. Recording from one DVD to another is a cinch and I can't detect any loss in quality. And the recordings play on my other DVD players too.
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How many gigs does it take to record a one hour programme at best quality Clive ?
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The highest quality is "fine" and that gives one hour on a 4.7 gig disk. I have been using SP which allows 2 hours.
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Thats a big file size :o
Is there a lot of difference between fine and SP ?
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It's not the same as using a PC, Sandra. It really doesn't matter about file sizes. You know you can get 2 hours high quality on a recordable DVD, and 3 hours good quality. That's really all you need to know with these things. ;) I tried the 1 hour 'best' quality on mine, and I can't tell the difference between that and the 2 hour 'high' quality. The 3 hour 'good' setting, is a very slightly softer picture, and you can notice a little digital 'noise' around some fast movement, but it's fine for everyday TV.
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To be honest with you I've only used SP and LP so far and the LP is still very good. One drawback with the system is that unlike VCR's, you can only erase entire blocks of a recording as opposed to say a 10 minute portion. It's a bit like erasing a computer program - you have to erase it all. Well I suppose that's not strictly true as you can erase individual files but you know what I'm getting at. You can of course break a recording up into lots of chunks (e.g. stopping it at the adverts) and they could be erased individually.
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I think VR mode gives you more editing capabilities, Clive, but then you can't play it back on another player. :-\
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I just got the panasonic E100 dvd/hdd recorder at richer sounds. fantastic machine at a good price but it had a fault so i took it back and i've now decided i can't really afford it.
the xp (best) mode fits 1 hour on disc and records at around 10mbps, footage from tv/stb looks identical to the original. sp gives 2 hours and is virtually indistinguishable from the 1 hour. recordings from old tapes look better than the originals due to the time base corrector. all in all i'm gutted i've had to take it back.
think i'll go for the E55 panny dvd recorder, should get that one through the budgets committee AKA mrsB. :P
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Well, I've been more than happy with my Sony GX3. The only occasional problems I have had were due to the STB crashing, not down to the DVDR. I hardly use my VCR now.
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What is this "VCR" you speak of Simon?
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think i'll go for the E55 panny dvd recorder, should get that one through the budgets committee AKA mrsB. :P
Dave, how fasts your pc ?
What have you got that you want to record, eg sat, digi terrestial or cable etc ?
You can save yourself a lot of money and have a better setup, if your PC is fast enough and just use a tv pci card.
They save to the hard drive in various formats, all seem to do at least mpeg2 for DVD quality, which you can burn to a CD or DVD to watch on your tvs dvd player
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Thanks for ideas sandra but to be honest i prefer to have a stand alone box under the tv. everything happens in real time and i dont have to lock myself away in my so called office for hours on end. Also i don't have a dvd writer in the pc (which incidentally at 1Ghz is probably near the bottom of minimum spec). I've already tried vcd/svcd on pc versus stand alone box and the box won hands down both in terms of quality and convenience. When i'm up and running i'll probably consider editting pre-recorded footage on the pc tho' ::)